so, now that we are heading into the part of our season that teams will expect refs to be as thorough as possible (not that they shouldn’t have been so far), i would like to bring up a couple of rules/interpretations that either are not fully explained in the kvkl rulebook, specifically contradicting conventional baseball rules, or just plain need to be more fully defined. this shiz is very nit-picky, and a bit scatterbrained, but just stuff i have run into in games and noticed when looking over the rules….which i do, and you should too…

1. rule I.2.a. says that any kicked ball that contacts the kicker on their way to first base is an out. so if the kicker is running in foul territory and is hit by the kicked ball, untouched by a defender, the runner is out. it’s not a double-kick if they have taken a step, and not a foul-ball….

2. according to rule B.3. if there are fewer than 4 referees, the team captains shall keep score on the score sheet, with the head ref checking every half-inning…. i would suggest that the head ref keep score in this situation (it’s not that difficult and really does help you to keep the game in order), but they can opt to have the captains do so….

3. this one is very tricky, and has never really been fully addressed…. kickers are only required to kick once during the game (and fielders only required to play the field one inning). so if you are splitting a spot with another kicker, you and they can kick in any order you wish, and as often as you wish, as long as you both kick at least once. (rules C.2 and 3)....but, kickers with their own spot would have to be “injured” and may not return to the game, in any capacity, if they were to give up their kicking spot. so in theory (robert?) you could scratch a kicker in the decisive moments of a game if they were “injured” and did not return to the game? but any kicker kicking out of order is an out?....let’s figure out a way to make sure this doesn’t happen.

4. as was determined last season, but never added to the rulebook; if a defender deflects a ball into the runners head (running upright and not ducking or sliding), it would still be considered a “head-shot, and the runner would be safe (sorry again bree!)....

5. if a catcher contacts or interferes with the runner, at all, the runner shall be awarded first base. the rules do not say what should happen to the other runners. i would guess they could run at their own risk? or would the head ref decide?

6. any contact at first base that happens in foul territory renders the runner safe. contact in fair territory is an out. but, if there is not a play being made and the fielder is blocking the base, (which is the case for any base, sorry jerod!). then the runner would be awarded an extra base, or the next base if they were to not advance safely. 

7. rule G.7. (a and b) says that when a pitcher has control of the ball inside of the defensive diamond and (a.) the runner maintains forward momentum, they can continue to run, but (b.) if they stop they must return to the base and may be tagged out. it doesn’t say what would happen if the ref were to order the runner back and the runner were tagged out…. happened in a game i was head ref, and i think the runner should be allowed unimpeded back to the base if a ref says anything that would stop play and make the runner return. sort of like a time-out (one more sorry to j. parr)....

8. i agree with caleb (listen to the podcast) about a ground-rule double being dis-advantageous to the offense. i would absolutely support a rule change for the ground-rule triple!

i very much want to try and make it easier for refereeing in this league. having the rules as unquestionable as possible really help that. but now my eyes are starting to burn, so if you have other questions about specific rules or comments about these, please elaborate on this thread….

Good points Adrian, I agree that these are definitely some of the more confusing rules.  Here are my interpretations.  I would also like to get the opinion of some of the other council members who helped to create and record these rules.  I will forward this thread along.

1)  Rule I.2.a & Rule F.1 - On the double kick foul vs. out : To be called a double kick the runner should either still be in the kicking motion or be behind the front edge of plate.  Otherwise getting hit by your own kick is currently an out.

2)  Rule B.3 - I agree with your thoughts on refs holding the clipboard with three refs but don’t see the need for a rule change.  The rule gives the head ref the option of requesting teams to hold the clipboard if they feel their attention is needed elsewhere.

3)  I would look at rule C.2 that says a player must play one inning in the field and kick once in conjunction with rule C.6 that says a player who is unable to kick in their spot must be scratched from the line up. Although I do believe we need to change “If a player is injured and is not able to kick” to “If a player is injured OR is not able to kick”.  Also rule C.4 should be considered, It states that “any player who kicks out of order shall be called out”.  This should be used if a person kicks in the wrong order in any case including switching spots, perhaps something directly about switching slot kickers should be added to the language?

4)  Rule G.3 - This seems to be covered in the second line of the “Headshot Rule” currently the rule states “any runner hit above the shoulder level while running upright shall be considered safe”.  It might help to clarify that in the first line of the same rule where it says “Hitting a runner with a thrown ball that first contacts a runner above shoulder level is not allowed”, “FIRST CONTACTS” is in there to deal with balls that deflect off a runner and hit themselves in the head.  This was not intended to say that if a ball deflects off of someone else and then hits the runner in the head that they are out.

5)  Rules E.5.c - I agree that this rule needs to be clarified.  In our week 4 game against Yello Sub our catcher was called for interference and the head referee gave the runner two bases and advanced the runners as far as they were forced. 

6)  Rule G.6.a & b - Yeah it seems to me that we may just need to remove the part in parenthesis “(or be called safe if they do not make it to the next base)”.  Otherwise it seems clear that defensive interference earns the runner a safe call and an EXTRA base. 

7)  Rule G.7.b - This rule actually states that returning runners CAN be tagged or thrown out even though they are forced to return by the Rule G.7.a.  Also unless there is an interference call, according to Rule J.1 time out could only be called once play stops with pitcher having control of the ball and all runners being on a base.

8)  I agree on Ground Rule Triple but with us being in the second half of play, that might have to wait until next season to discuss whether there is need for a change.

damn it! wrote another long and detailed post on these matters, forgot to submit for a long while, and it was all lost… suffice it to say that, yes much of this was obvious, but i have seen all of these scenarios pondered by refs/captains/players and often ruled on incorrectly… and i think the runner being called back to a base due to the pitcher controlling the ball and the line-up loopholes need to be hashed out a bit.

more on this tomorrow…..

First post, yay!

Alright, so I want to talk more about the fact that (per Rule G.7.b), a Runner can be thrown out by advancing a base when the Pitcher has possession of the ball.  It seems like the ruling by the Ref of whether a Runner is legitimately advancing a base or not is often made after a pause in play and the runner is already at the next base. 

Maybe you guys have more experience from watching, but wouldn’t the Runner always be tagged out in this case due to the Pitcher getting the ball to the base faster than the runner can get back?  Or does the Pitcher themselves have to run to the base to tag them out since by throwing the ball to another fielder, the Runner can then advance a base w/o the ball in the Pitcher’s possession?  I guess just a tiny bit of clarification could put this to rest.

wow! an actual human being posting on the forums!!.... the pitcher would have to tag the runner before they returned to the base. if the pitcher threw it to the base, the runner would no longer have to go back.

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